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Thames Ironworks 12:42 Mon Feb 16
Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Before I begin I do not pretend to be an expert neither do I have statistics to back up my post, hence the reason it is posted as a question.

What I have heard from others has been a concern that with Allardyce as manager that youth talent in a squad is commonly not utilised by him and the ability to develop a squad is not his strength. Now it is clear that we rarely see young players given chance and while at this point of time a striker (again) is a priority signing we do have youth players who are not used. Is this not a sign that talent at the club is being eroded? Already we see a lot of the promising youngsters who have been at the club for a good spell moved on, Turbot and Fanimo this year.

Further to any discussion on talent erosion, I look to the start of this season where it was clear that Sakho and Valencia were a force. Coupled with Downings find of form and change of position we definitely started this season at a gallop. Many praised the attacking coaching of Sheringham, many clearly looked at the talent of the individuals and the extra quality they have brought to the squad. Yet now and after the West Brom game there was a lot of lethargy in the squad. There has been a gradual deterioration and maybe that is just tiredness, or is it that Allardyce seems to have a style that does erode the talent of these players. I feel it is not the first time a player has looked promising and then over time becomes a journeyman. Vaz Te, Zarate etc?

Again I cannot talk about this subject in confidence, but does it seem that with Allardyce as manager you start to see players deteriorate?

Hugh Monteith 8:57 Wed Feb 18
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Its not that simple.really 8 my friend.its not that simple

After8 8:50 Wed Feb 18
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

It's perfectly simple. We were playing well and winning.

Sam put Nolan and Carroll in and disrupted the team.

We stopped playing well and winning.

Hugh Monteith 8:47 Wed Feb 18
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

This is one of the most important threads on
who for many a year.
Now we shall see the wisdom and the insight of whoers


Top marks T I

Hugh Monteith 9:37 Tue Feb 17
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

As I have said on here many times before
"The developmental process is inadequate"

eternal pessimist 7:05 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Thames Ironworks 6:15 Mon Feb 16

"The biggest problems he has had, I think, have to do with thinking aspects of the game."

I think that the biggest problem he has is that he gets bumped off the ball far too easily and loses possession as a result.

If you look at his stature, he very slight compared to most players.

I am hoping that he needs time to get used to the physicality of the English game. It takes some players a good season before they are able to adjust, and they improve in their second season (Lamela seems to be doing this for the Spuds).

He clearly has talent and speed to burn. One of the quickest around, I think. I am confident he will come good if he is encouraged and does not let his head drop/confidence evaporate. It's the last part that concerns me. His confidence seems to have gone, which is not good. He does not seem to be enjoying his game....

ironsofcanada 6:41 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Thames Ironworks 6:15 Mon Feb 16

I think it has been more inconsistency rather than a drop, I think he played very well against Hull the second time for instance which was relatively recently.

The biggest problems he has had, I think, have to do with thinking aspects of the game. Like going off side or which option to take. If there was a coach that could make a quick fix on something like that its Sheringham but it hasn't happened yet.

Thames Ironworks 6:15 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

ironsofcanada 6:08 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Yeah I remember that. He showed he had talent, that awesome free kick and of course he has been more provider for Sakho than out and out striker. Nonetheless the guy has talent, it just seems he is dropping rather than improving.

Of course is that down to Allardyce, that's my question, not my judgement.

ironsofcanada 6:08 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Thames Ironworks 4:33 Mon Feb 16

Valencia is an example, a shadow of what he started this season like.

Actually he struggled at the beginning of the season, when he played. Remember the "Turkey" post?

Thames Ironworks 6:05 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Chigwell, out of curiosity how weak do you think we are and where?

Chigwell 4:53 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Sam is tactically aware and knows how to make the most of a relatively weak Premiership squad. At present West Ham are such a squad, and unless we get a further huge injection of cash we are probably better off staying with him for the time being.

BMU 4:51 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Alex V

Probably because Downing's best performances are when Nolan doesn't feature anywhere in that team, and that I suspect is because Downing performs best when midfielders move off the ball to create space.... aconcept completely alien to Nolan and Allardyce

Thames Ironworks 4:33 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Interesting comments. My view is that the start of this season has seen talent come in and do well until they start to fit into an Allardyce system that is not making the most of their talent. This I feel is slowly eroding our good start. Valencia is an example, a shadow of what he started this season like.

On the subject of youth. We are 8th in the table, we will seriously need to fuck up if we go down which I cannot see happening. We have set a goal for Europe so young players will not be used otherwise we sacrifice that goal. Personally I would like to see the young players get a chance, being 8th doesn't give us the fear of previous seasons so why not get them to fill the gaps where injury has decimated us? Allardyce claims our players were tired and injuries have affected us. Well Lee could've played as a striker, maybe even give Oxford a run out. Why can't we look to give these players a chance and confirm they deserve to be on our books?

Russ of the BML 4:00 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

ajc123 3:51 Mon Feb 16

He can't develop anyone, he just uses them.

I agree with that. But, then just playing devil's advocate, isn't that almost what all managers do?

Russ of the BML 3:58 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

ironsofcanada 2:41 Mon Feb 16

Fair point. I may have been a little harsh there actually because, as you say, individual defenders have progressed and developed under him.

And, also as a team, we do in general look a much better defending unit. I think Sam's problem is that he maybe gives the attacking players too many instructions and therefore disables them sloghtly rather than letting them express themselves.

A balance is needed and I think Sam may have lost his confidence too as the team looks handicapped at the moment. At the start of the season we were free-flowing, pacey and fluid. Now we look stifled and rigid. Think he is worrying too much about opposition and feeding these worries to the players and giving them roles which restrict them.

ajc123 3:51 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

"Sam's biggest negative. He isn't a coach" I don't disagree with that, but what exactly does he bring to the table then? For all those fans of his, what exactly is his role apart from slipping out of range of any criticism?
He's not a coach, he has a system but it doesn't tolerate players playing in their strongest positions, they just have to do as they are told. He can't develop anyone, he just uses them.

What sort of football manager is he then? I go back to my criticism of him, to me its the biggest - if he is so convinced of his methods, then he would be developing players in his mindset, he would be moulding a team that would win his way, and would be capable of competing. After all Bertie Bassett did it with Wimbledon and you don't get much more superficial and results focussed than that.

Except Allardyce has never done that has he? Bolton - he left nothing, no legacy, no teams of coaches continuing his tried and trusted methods, and its the same everywhere he's been. He was a short term solution, given a medium term contract, and this will leave us in a state. He is flaky and lacks intelligence and depth, a self publicist with no substance. For all the northern grit PR, he is in actual fact an Arthur Daley, sounding empty phrases with no back bone. Hence bottling every serious challenge.

If he stays we will be stuck in a rut.

ornchurch ammer 3:25 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

People keep going on about it Alex as he has been moved wide a number of times which has disrupted his performances. Why fix something that is not broken?

You might think he played in a diamond on Saturday but the damage has now been done by being moved in previous weeks.

Alex V 2:49 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

I dunno why people on here keep going on about Downing's position. He played at the tip of the diamond on Saturday, was totally ineffective, and we got soundly beaten.

ornchurch ammer 2:44 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

I would just like someone sensible to ask him straight why Downing has been moved from a position where he was shit hot at the start of the season and to hear his answer.

No reference to Nolan in the original question, just hear what his answer is.

Alex V 2:41 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

>>> You can't expect a never ending production line of great youth players who will go on to become first team players...

I disagree. I think for most clubs in world football that is exactly what you continue to see. The clubs that warp the system by buying most or all of their squads will eventually be totally discouraged or even disallowed by fair play rules. I think we're even seeing that already at premier league level - clubs are reassessing the broken system and seeing that developing players from within is not only a cheaper route, but also much more beneficial to the long term success of the club. Especially as coaching and development continues to become more of a science and less of a lottery.

ironsofcanada 2:41 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Russ of the BML 2:35 Mon Feb 16

I would agree except for defenders, I think we have seen them develop quite well. I think that is where he has confidence to judge whether kids are good enough as well.

That is why Teddy was a decent appointment. Balances that off.

BMU 2:39 Mon Feb 16
Re: Allayrdyce and the erosion of talent?

Allardyce's reluctance to keep the formation that had Downing at the top of a diamond with Song, Noble and Amalfitano, with Valencia and Sakho upfront, because he favours Nolan and Carroll, is why the club's form has faded recently

The side that played against Man City was full of pace and movement which is indubitably lost when Nolan starts at the top of the diamond, yet Allardyce continues to prefer Nolan to start in midfield rather than that which defeated Man City

So yes, it is difficult to credit much of the good stuff to him because he clearly opposes it, and prefers that which largely does not work

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